In an increasingly complex and interconnected world, traditional linear leadership models are proving insufficient. The future of effective leadership lies in embracing non-linear thinking, which fosters creativity, adaptability, and human connection. In this episode, Perry Knoppert, founder of The Octopus Movement, recounts his transformative journey from homelessness to pioneering a new approach to leadership through non-linear thinking. He reveals how embracing non-linear thinking and celebrating neurodiversity can unlock hidden potential and drive innovation. Get ready to challenge your assumptions and discover a fresh perspective on what it means to be a leader in today’s world.

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Perry Knoppert – The Octopus Movement: The Future Of Leadership With Non-Linear Thinking

Perry’s Journey And Motivation

I would love to introduce to you our hosts for this episode. First of all, we have Howard Nizewitz. He’s a seasoned compensation advisor and strategic HR consultant with over 30 years of experience. Also, we have Char Miller. She is a strategy skills consultant at the Strategic Thinking Institute and also here at CompTeam. She’s a talent management strategist and a career and entrepreneur transformation coach. We’re very fortunate to have her here on the show. 

We have a wonderful topic for this episode. We’re going to be diving into the Octopus Movement, the Future of Leadership with Non-linear Thinking with the Founder of the movement, Perry Knoppert. Perry, aka Doctor Octopus, is not just a visionary leader, but he’s also a passionate advocate for the extraordinary capabilities of atypical thinkers. Through his organizations, including Brain Force Alliance, and his role on the board of Pick My Neurodiverse Brain, Perry champions a world where diverse minds are recognized for their unique problem-solving abilities.

His philosophy on non-linear thinking challenges conventional norms and paves the way for innovative leadership strategies worldwide. Join us as we explore how embracing complexity in diverse thought can lead to groundbreaking solutions in today’s fast-paced world. Perry’s insights are sure to inspire anyone looking to harness the power of inclusivity and creativity in their leadership approach. Without further ado, let’s dive into the topic here with Perry Knoppert.

Nice to meet you all. Thank you, Sam.

Perry, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be where you are now in helping the individuals and leaders that you help.

It all started with a hard reset in my life almost four years ago. I gave away everything and I became homeless. I’ve always had the fascination of being homeless. It sounds weird, but I’m a curious misfit. It’s in line with being a curious misfit to decide some things were happening in my life and they weren’t going well. I just broke up with my girlfriend, and the house owner from whom we were renting the house was not amused.

Things were going wrong and I thought, “Do you know what? This is the time to do something. This is my opportunity.” I gave away everything. I said, “This is it. Leave it.” I left everything. My bank accounts, my cars, everything gone from one day to the other day. I can tell you, if you give stuff away that goes fast, that’s not a problem at all. There’s no delay. There’s no thinking about it. Trust me. It’s within a day.

I was there with my little bag and my dog and that’s it. That’s what started everything. First of all, I have that curiosity of being detached and having nothing. What is that? It was the right opportunity and I wanted to change my life. Something was going on in my life that I couldn’t address exactly, but I wasn’t happy with it.

I wasn’t unhappy at all. I was living a luxurious life and we were traveling, in a big house and a wine cellar. Everything was there. The Mercedes Benz was there. It was all fantastic, but something was missing. This eventually became the best journey of my life because I figured out many things, but one of the biggest things that I found out was nothing changed.

I was standing in line in the Netherlands with a local government office to get a postal address because I didn’t have anything and they sent me away. I was standing there between other people being homeless at 6:30 in the morning because that’s the time they open up offices for homeless people because you don’t want to see them during the day.

I thought that was something. Nothing changed. Everything here is the same. Everything there is different. How people look at you, the lady from the office who sent me away, they look at you differently, but you stay the same. Although it was very difficult and I talk easily about it now, I couldn’t see my three kids. My ex-wife wanted to kill me. Not really, but she didn’t like this action at all. My parents were also looking at me, “Seriously, what are you doing, Perry?”

Nobody could follow me why I was doing it that way. That was the start of the Octopus Movement because I figured out many things, and I have neurodiversity. I’m weird and I’ve always had a fascination for weird people. Everything just came together. For the first period of my life, I was trying to do what I had to do, what was expected from me by myself and others.

In that transition, I removed the mask and all the expectations. I didn’t want to convince anyone anymore. I just wanted to dance with life as it is and it helped for me that I decided to become an artist. I thought there were no expectations in being an artist. We don’t even agree on what art is. Being an artist is very non-linear to me and perfect.

One day, it came to me. I have a non-linear brain and I live in this linear world. That’s why some things are not going well for me. I went to Philips in the Netherlands, where they create MRI machines. I was homeless. This is funny. Ding-dong. “Hi, Philips. Can I borrow an MRI machine from you guys? They asked, “Who are you? Why are you asking this?”

I said, “I love weird people and people say that we’re wired differently. I want to understand what wired differently means, if that’s a thing or not. Is that true or not?” Of course, I didn’t get an MRI machine, but the Director of Design at Philips started talking with me and she was amazed. She says, “Tell me your stories.” I told her that I was homeless and the decisions I took.

I got in contact with her research team of 23 people researching all kinds of topics. I was able to talk with them about the brain and the thinking. That’s the start of the journey of non-linear thinking in a linear world. I thought,”After being homeless for seven months and I survived everything, something cool happened.”

You figure out that nothing changed and you can survive this. The worst thing you can imagine, you can survive that. Afterward, I was thinking, “I can do whatever I want to do if I survive this.” Even if the most difficult thing doesn’t change you, then bring it on. I can do whatever I want to do, and that’s the decision I made back then to create a nonprofit.

I wanted to create the possibility of being aware of the capability of people who are different, who don’t fit in the box, and who we’re missing out on an opportunity if we’re not looking at these people because they’re brilliant. However, because they don’t fit in the box, we tend to ignore them a little bit. Most of the people who I interviewed back then said, “If only people would understand who I was, I could do so much more.” That always triggered me. That’s interesting if that’s what you’re thinking. Interviewing these brilliant minds, the only problem is that people don’t understand them.

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Therefore, they have the feeling that they’re not doing things they want to do. Let me do something about this because I’m one of these weirdos and I do think I have the awesome capacity and we can do something in the world. Sorry, that almost took me ten minutes. That’s the journey and why the Octopus Movement.

I think there are many big lessons in what you just told us. The first is the transformation and just the process of transformation. One thing we can take ourselves out of that environment, maybe go through a radical change as you did, but, nevertheless, we take ourselves with us wherever we go. We can’t escape, our mind and our thoughts, but we can put ourselves in a new environment to help us get a different perspective, a fresh perspective. I applaud your bravery in taking such a journey. That’s great.

It had to be a challenge because if you think about all of our institutions, whether it’s a school or work, almost all of them require some degree of conforming or if you don’t fit in in one place, you need to move to another place where you think you fit in. That’s quite brave of you.

It was a big challenge and frustrating from time to time as well, Howard, because I remember my ex-wife moved back to the Netherlands when I was homeless. She thought, “This is the opportunity for me to go back to the Netherlands.” I didn’t want to go back to the Netherlands. She said, “Okay. Here we go.” My kids went to a new international school. I got there and I was asking people. I’m looking for a house. I’m homeless. “Can someone help me?” People were immediately backing up. “Who is this weird guy?”  I don’t want to talk to him.

A lot of relocation managers are there because their kids are going to an international school as well. These people, that’s their business. They’re in contact with real estate. Maybe they can help me temporarily live somewhere. No. It’s too difficult. What do you say? Are you homeless? There’s immediately a blue screen, Windows, control delete. There’s no way. That’s been very inspiring. If that happens fast for me, that’s the linear brain, immediately, you go from A to B to C and D in a straight line.

“You’re homeless. I don’t want to talk to you.” That’s my inspiration because I’m thinking, “That’s not fair. I’m a good human and I don’t have a house right now. It doesn’t say anything about me.” We need to do something about that. We need to create that balance. I’m not against linear thinking, but it’s about the balance of linearity systems with non-linear creativity, not judging immediately and bringing those together. That’s it for me.

We need to find a balance between linear systems and nonlinear creativity. This means avoiding immediate judgment and bringing these two elements together. Share on X

Of course, I have to open my mouth here. I resonate with you. I do. This is fantastic. I love that you’re humble. You speak the truth. Being an HR Executive and HR talent person, we are the epiphany of whatever word you want to use of trying to act like your life is perfect, cookie cutter, you live in suburbia with the dog in the house, the big mortgage, and you have your perfect job. Believe me, I know.

To be laid off and go through things like divorce, I’ve been there. I have, but there’s a bit of shame because you always want to put a facade that everything’s perfect and that my life is perfect even though I’ve been laid off. Now I’m homeless and I’m restarting over. I understand what you’re saying. I do think that there are so many of us in this world who have gone through these types of hardships.

What’s struggling for me is that employers seem to look at professionals and expect that they have this perfect life that fits their cookie cutter of the type of professionals that they want to hire. However, why not look at professionals who have gone through some hardships? Perhaps their parents passed away or perhaps they’ve gone through some major tragedies or some some life challenges.

Don’t you think that makes you a stronger person, more resilient, and perhaps a real asset to that organization? It’s like we’re unable to talk about it. It’s like this underlying secret. You give me the chills. I can’t wait to hear more about your topic, Doctor Octopus, because I ended up being in a similar spot with my Octopus hands everywhere, too. Thank you and I appreciate your honesty.

Thank you, Char. This is also why I’m passionate about leadership. If I can be very bold and Dutch, there’s a lot of nonsense leadership going on in the world and we need to address that. We’re talking about education in this world. We want to reform education. We’re looking at education. What are we doing? These kids, with their neurodiversity, it doesn’t work anymore.

It’s the same thing with leadership. Recently, I was studying this paper. I have it here from the Institute of Economic Affairs. It’s called Chaos Management and Economics, The Implications of Non-linear Thinking. I’m not making this up. They researched why linearity is there. I think this is the key to leadership and doing it differently because they’re writing about the linear approach as the solution when you don’t want to go into your mental being.

If you don’t want to go into your mental state in who you are and you want to play things safe, you become linear. You create systems, you want to control things, and you want to know what’s happening next week and next month. There are a lot of linear systems within leadership and because that’s there in leadership, it’s almost a self-fulfilling prophecy within linear thinking that it fits on top of the other and it remains that way.

 

It’s not helping because it’s created out of fear when you look at non-linear thinkers. By the way, I think everybody is a non-linear thinker because nobody has ever seen a linear two-year-old. We all begin as non-linear thinkers, then we go to school.,and then we have parents. What happens with people who are non-linear is that they can’t help themselves, not always, but often linked to neurodiversity. Why?

It is because they’ve heard their entire life that they’re doing something wrong. I have dyslexia and ADHD, and I’m on the spectrum. Congratulations, Perry. I’ve always heard that I was weird. I was doing things wrong and writing was an issue for me. Thank you, ChatGPT. You saved my life. It’s wonderful to have AI in this world. What is the benefit of being weird and trying to fit into a linear society is that they questioned me constantly.

What happens is at a very young age, I was questioning myself. “What’s wrong with me? Why is everything going wrong at school?” It is because every time I write down something and have dyslexia, I read a question, and I’m convinced I’m reading it the right way, but I’m not. I’m giving an answer that is not the answer to the question.

It’s not because I’m stupid. I thought I was stupid, but it’s dyslexia, which is changing letters in words, and my brain is reading something else. I’ve been constantly wondering what’s wrong with me, that I’m weird, and there’s something wrong with me. The benefit of that brain is that I don’t mind going into my mental state of being. I’m not scared of that. The positive side effect of that is I can allow chaos to be in my life.

I don’t go to that linear spectrum to be in control, to wear tight underwear, to use systems, and to be fully under control. I allow chaos and I allow it so badly that I even became homeless. That was the ultimate chaos in my life. it opens up many possibilities within the non-linear spectrum and that’s creativity, innovation, and doing something nobody else is doing. That’s it.

Within leadership, I think it’s time to start looking at non-linear leadership in balance with linear leadership. I got it. Systems, we need to do that. Trust me, I have my databases and Excel sheets. I’m managing a global organization with only neurodiverse people. I have my systems, of course, but it’s not only that. We need to go into that human intelligence within leadership and for me, that’s non-linear leadership.

Linear Vs. Non-Linear Thinking

Let’s talk about a few things that you mentioned, of course, dive into some of the metaphors that you were talking about. One is, driving down a highway. Sometimes linear thinking, such as structured rules and so forth provides us the capability to move fast in a particular safe environment, like a freeway. You can drive 100 kilometers or faster, 100 miles per hour down a freeway, but it doesn’t lead to a lot of sightseeing or innovative thinking overall.

Sometimes we need to go off-road, and when we do, we don’t know what we’re going to find. It could be ruts, mud, rivers, streams, or whatever. I think that you’ve found the consequence of linear thinking in your experience of being homeless. As you mentioned, people looked at you. They were afraid to engage with you. Often, when we think of homeless people, we think of people who are takers.

They want to beg or take whatever they’re given. We don’t think that they have much to give and I think that’s one reason that people are afraid. That linear thinking can cause behavior among all of us that is not con conducive. I think leaders can get stuck into that. Tell me, Perry, how do you help leaders transform from that linear thinking to that non-linear creative mindset?

I always say that you need to go to the space between thoughts. Sometimes, people are looking at me, “What?” That’s how simple it is. You see a homeless person, you have a thought immediately. “He’s a taker.” “He must be on drugs.” Sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn’t. It’s too simple to just judge like that immediately. You can be right, but you can be wrong. How do you figure out that space of right or wrong? You need to give it space.

I have my thoughts and I’m isolated in thoughts as well sometimes because we’re conditioned in our thinking that it’s a linear construct anyway because of the conditioning. For me, it’s how do you go there? How do you use non-linear thinking? Non-linear thinking isn’t about wearing weird glasses, weird shoes, and being all creative on the outside because that can be very linear as well.

You know the people I’m talking about. You see them and you’ll say, “They’re creative.” For me, that’s also in a very linear way. Maybe. It is about the space between thoughts. It’s about quieting down the brain. If you have a thought, you have a thought right now, and we’re doing this together. For many people, doing these conversations together means, what am I going to say next? I want to respond to what he’s saying. What am I going to say to make an impression?

That’s how we’re conditioned to do things together. If you do it non-linearly, then you just listen, quiet down your brain, and look at the space between thoughts. Then, something cool comes up and you haven’t thought about what you’re going to say and it just happens. Nine out of ten times, that’s more creative, more human, more intelligent, and more interesting than that isolation of thought.

If you do it in a non-linear way, you simply listen, quiet down your brain, and find the space between thoughts. Something truly cool and unanticipated comes up. Share on X

If people ask me, how can I do that? Go to the space between thoughts. If you’ve never had a quiet brain, there’s a simple exercise. Sit down and relax. You’re going to be in a meditative state of mind. If you have never meditated, I don’t want to be woo-woo here, but just relax and be yourself. Then, ask your brain, “What is my next thought?” You will have the space between thoughts because your brain is going to be, “What is he asking?” That’s weird. Your brain cannot handle that.

There is a nanosecond or a second. There is space when you do that and then you start thinking that’s a weird question or I can think about the sandwich I’m going to eat. It will come up, but it will not say to you what the next thought is. The only possibility is the next thought and there’s a space between the question and the next thought. That’s the space between thoughts and that’s where the non-linear thinking lies, in my opinion.

Cognitive Diversity

I love that because I’m an overthinker. That’s a phrase and I need that. I just posted an article about meeting management and there are inequities in how diversity is treated in meetings. We know this. Many meetings are about monologues, and many meetings are about one person who is a showboat and goes on a 20 to 30-minute rampage. Many people in the room feel unheard. They don’t feel acknowledged.

Perhaps we overthinkers or strange people in the room, like me, are almost intimidated by thinking between those thoughts and using that thinking to be able to represent the best ideas and strategic ideas in my world. I love what you talk about. Also, I want to mention that this neurodiversity is vital. Neurodiversity is one of those diversities. Sometimes we think it’s about some of the outward appearance things, but it’s way more than that. What challenges do you face when promoting cognitive diversity and how have you overcome them?

To be honest, none. Maybe it’s because I started this in a very non-linear way. When I started the Octopus Movement, we were 50 people. I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have a blueprint. I didn’t have a business plan. I seriously had no goal. I had nothing. Just the idea of the octopus and that there are a lot of non-linear thinkers in the world that we don’t see and hear and just see what happens when we bring them together.

It’s an organic movement that is wonderful and because I’ve been in the space of homelessness, I’ve trained myself to live without anything. I also wanted to prove, give me a laptop and Internet connection. I can build whatever I want to build, and I don’t need any investment. Nothing. I’m capable of running the global show without any donations, without anything. It’s about the human mycelium. It’s about this connection we’re doing right here.

When I’m talking to companies, they come to us when they’re excited about us, and then there’s a human click. It’s a no-brainer. We did that at NASA. What a wonderful first conversation, then I had a conversation with the director of nerds of NASA. It was also wonderful. It’s a human interaction. Then, you start working together and it will work regardless.

Anyway, it will work, but because we’re in this non-linear playing field, people only come together from the outside into the Octopus Movement when they feel that connection. I’ve never had any issues whatsoever and I don’t want to convince anyone. If I have a feeling that, that person is very linear and is not going to see what we’re doing, then first of all, there is not even a conversation, not because I’m blocking but it’s just not happening.

The other thing is that I’ve learned in my homelessness time that I don’t want to convince people anymore because I was thinking back to my life as an entrepreneur. I thought that every time I had to convince someone, it didn’t work out in the end. Never. You could win in a short period or a longer period. You always pay the price when you have to convince someone.

All the entrepreneurs will understand what I’m saying here. It doesn’t mean that I cannot be passionate about and talk about what I’m doing. “Listen to me now.” This is not me trying to convince you that non-linear thinking is everything. I’m just explaining how I see it and it’s up to you what you want to do with it. Thank God I’ve never had any situations where I had to convince people or try to bring them in a different way of thinking.

The Octopus

As a matter of context for our readers, I think it’d be helpful and I hope I’m not jumping ahead here, but I think it’d be interesting, as you were sharing with it in our prior discussion, what it is about Octopus and what started your movement. You mentioned a few things about an octopus before. Why is that relevant to this movement? Can you explain it?

Yes. I found out that it’s very relevant, but it started very simply. I was interviewing weird people and the curious misfits are what they have in common. That’s who I am, so curious. I want to know everything, but I’m a misfit. There are words for it. You have the word, multipotentialite polymath, jack of all trades. In France, they call it zebras. Robert Sher calls it scanners and generalists.

You have all these labels and I was thinking, “This is not it for me.” It doesn’t make any sense. I started asking, what is the symbol of a curious misfit? Then Christine in London said to me, “I always send an octopus emoji if I have a fun conversation with someone on the phone.” I remember her doing that to me, this is a gorgeous-looking woman.

We had a phone call, and then she sent me an octopus as I asked my kids, “Guys, what does it mean? I got an octopus, am I being old? What is this?” They said, “It doesn’t mean anything, Dad.” It was Christine and then I was talking to Haley in South Africa. She said to me, “Talking about that octopus emoji, have you seen my octopus teacher?” I said, “No. I haven’t.”

I watched it the same day, and that was spot-on because it was filmed by a filmmaker who gets into a burnout in the linear world and goes back home to South Africa. I have a connection with that country. I’ve been there many times. He went swimming in ice-cold water to get back in his conscious mind. He saw this octopus every day and he started going back to that octopus every day.

He started filming that octopus. That octopus was teaching him all kinds of things about life. That movie was on the perfect day and time of my life. I remember calling back Christine and Haley. I said, “I’m going to make the Octopus Movement. Are you okay with that? It’s based on what you said and that movie.” Why the octopus? It has 3 hearts, 9 brains, and 8 arms.

Yes, that’s fun, but what does it mean? Three hearts, sensitive. We feel things. If you look at human intelligence, we have a gut feeling. We know before we know and that’s how we act. That’s how some of these entrepreneurs are very successful. They think before they think and it comes from their gut feelings. Three hearts are related to that topic.

Then you have nine brains. We’re curious. We want to know everything. We learn fast. We make the connections. I have dyslexia. Give me a data sheet, I love it and I start making connections that not everybody is seeing. It’s the nine brains and then eight arms, Char, or was it five companies? We have eight arms. We’re doing multiple things and that’s the octopus.

I was reading this book on symbols. I bought The Book of Symbols from Tarchen Publishing, and they have the octopus in here. They’re writing about the octopus, saying, “The octopus brings together extremely negative and positive attributes, a paradox that expresses the hidden connections between chaos, emptiness, and the ordering capacity of the psyche.” When I was reading that, I said, “Am I a lucky bastard or not?” This is exactly what the Octopus Movement is about. It’s that chaos.

That is a profound statement. Wow.

It’s unbelievable. I know.

Yes. It’s just a perfect animal or critter that personifies what you’re doing. If we just think about how an octopus acts in nature, when it’s moving around slowly, it’s reaching out with all its different arms and covering that territory.

Did you know, Sam? I’m excited about it. An octopus used to have a shell a long time ago. They decided they didn’t need that protection anymore because it wasn’t helping them. In my brain, that makes me dance on the couch. I was jumping, looking at the linear world, leadership, and where we are with humanity now.

Looking at that octopus that removed its shell to be flexible and capable of chaos and doing more things, that resembles for me nonlinearity, non-linear thinking. Its importance is that we can, maybe soon, let go of a little bit of linear thinking. We have AI now. AI is super linear thinking. To make it all work, we need human intelligence next to artificial intelligence to have the perfect dance. That’s us humans. It’s human intelligence that’s inside of us. It’s not systems.

We can create systems because of our intelligence, but our true human intelligence is art. It’s creating music. It’s the connection with other people. It’s doing that unexpected little thing to make it even more beautiful, shine, and create new ideas. That’s the human intelligence. When I was reading that, I thought, “Can you all see it?”

Human intelligence is doing that little thing that is unexpected to make it even more beautiful, shine, and create new ideas. Share on X

I am going to do that in addition to watching that documentary, which is fabulous. I advise everybody to watch it. You also think about an octopus because a lot of organizations are built around fear. A lot of organizations, particularly in leadership. One of my dear colleagues wrote a book about Leading Without Fear. Her name’s Doctor Lauri Cure, by the way.

What happens is when an octopus feels fear, what do they do? They go into a crevice or a very small space. Sometimes, they leave a little ink, too. They go into a very small space and cower. That is not leading without fear. As an octopus, you can’t get all the food, and the benefits, and reap the rewards if you’re constantly cowering and hiding, which is also related to your discussion about meetings or interpersonal conversations.

If you cower, you can never express what’s on your mind and you can’t spread your little tentacles out. You will never benefit the organization. I know that I’m getting a metaphor here, but that’s who I am. Also, brings in growth because obviously, octopuses grow very fast. Could you tell me that I’m a daughter of a biologist?

That’s why.

That is why. I could probably go into all the things and the little beak. Yes, I love this analogy. I belong to a lot of different groups on LinkedIn, like the Brain Expansion Group and various other groups, and I think your subject matter expertise would be phenomenal. I don’t think it’s the typical standard. How do you think outside the box?

No.

It’s inspiring to me. Sometimes, I get jazzed on these forums, but it’s very intriguing. Those are some of the thoughts that I was thinking.

Neurodiversity And Its Management

Also, talking about neurodiversity, I give keynotes about neurodiversity, but not in, “This is neurodiversity, and these are the superpowers of neurodiversity.” I’m not going there because “What is neurodiversity?” Neurodiversity is neuro, diversity, and humanity. It’s there and then we decide that if there is a problem, we give it a label.

Recently, I was working with a university with 42 students from all over the world, and I asked them, “Can you design the space before neurodiversity?” If I have ADHD and I’m not being tested, I don’t have ADHD. Right? I only get tested when there is a problem. If I don’t have a problem, I never get tested and I don’t have ADHD, but I do have ADHD. This is weird. This is the linear approach to neurodiversity.

How do you design the space before neurodiversity, before there is a problem, and still your brain is different from the rest? Why is it that for some people, it’s not a problem, and for some people, it is a problem? That is fascinating to me, and I hope that people will start looking at it differently because I gave a keynote at the biggest bank in the Netherlands.

They said to me, “Perry, we’re very proud. We’re hiring people with autism.” I said, “How did that go?” “Not very good. They all leave again.” That’s what’s happening. It’s not working. It’s not about we’re hiring people on the spectrum. We’re hiring people, and it would be wonderful to get away from the system thinking, open your eyes, and see what’s possible. I have a management team of 28 people in the movement. Twenty-seven of them are neurodiverse.

 

I have a lot of people on the spectrum, and a lot of things are going on. I know this is not the easiest journey and I get it that linear thinking is the best way to manage your whole bunch of people. I get it. The beauty of what is happening in our team and the results that we’re getting, that’s awesome. I think a lot of companies and organizations can be very jealous of that.

Is it difficult to manage? Yes, because we’re all trained in that linear management system. You let that go a little bit and you go in between the thoughts where is possible? Sorry. I get all excited about these topics. I want to share and talk a lot.

No. I understand, but let’s dive into that a little bit more. Let’s talk a little bit more about organizations such as NASA is interested in this movement and what it can do for them. You just brought up a very good point that linear and non-linear thinking need to work together to get some of these best outputs.

As you can see, NASA is a great example of that, and linear thinking creates these great system manuals, processes, and procedures that can be used in the launch process and doing the mission but then, things happen in the wilderness out there, and they need to take action that is perhaps not in the manual. That’s where non-linear thinking comes in and champions. Can you tell us a little bit about that dance between, how companies can take advantage of both linear and non-linear thinking in that capacity?

I will, but before that, let me tell you a little story about NASA. I was happy to give a keynote there for more than 300 people because I always talk about NASA in my other keynotes. During the space race, NASA went to a consultancy agency and said, “We’re looking for the most creative and brilliant minds on the planet. Where can we find them?”

They did a big research and they found out that the three to five-year-olds, 98% of them, are creatively brilliant. They researched adults with an average age of 32. They interviewed 180,000 adults and only 2% of them were creatively brilliant. They discovered this during the space race because they wanted to go to the moon and they needed clever brains.

Therefore, we’ve created the Think Tank within the Octopus Movement. We bring these non-linear thinkers from all over the world together. We’ve created a system that works for these non-linear thinkers. It’s design thinking, but then in a different way, in a non-linear way. It goes very fast. It only takes 50 minutes. It’s complete chaos. It drives people nuts. There are a lot of questions.

There’s even sound. Everything is happening. People are in a hurry and then these 50 minutes are gone. We have 350 ideas. We can write on a white paper and we’re done in a few days. We can do so much in such a short period, which is completely different thinking. When we bring 40 people together, 95% of the people are neurodiverse.

We have bipolar, dyspraxia, and autism. Everything is there. It goes in all directions and some people can’t handle the sounds and some people can’t handle the fast imaging that’s going on, but the thinking is awesome and the ideas that pop out of that are fantastic. Joe Dispenza is always saying that 90% of his thoughts are always the same thoughts every day.

If you go with your company on a management retreat on a Friday afternoon, everybody’s wearing something else, shorts and T-shirts. Let’s brainstorm together. It’s not working because these people are thinking the same things every day. It’s not working. You also don’t want to have 90% of your company being all crazy non-linear. This Think Tank works, and you can dive into it.

We’ve been in Forbes Magazine about this. We help startups, we help companies, and we’re helping NASA now with this, “Jump in, tell me your problem. We’re solving it.” “Tell me your issue.” It’s cool that people in the Think Tank don’t even know what we’re looking for. We change the questions and people in the Think Tank sometimes don’t even know which company it is or what the problem is.

We just ask you to think differently on topics. We use that, bring that together in a different way, and write a white paper. That’s what we do and we’re super excited about this because it’s super fast and these people who are doing this are the people who are being ignored because they’re too weird. Now, they’re celebrated by NASA, startups, and education because they created the perfect solution for something.

I just want to say this because my kids brought this up to me when they were in their early 20s. My son was always a little awkward and interesting. They informed me that being weird is cool. “Being a nerd is very cool, mom.” Get with the program. You think you’re just this typical professional. Being weird is cool. I don’t care if I have glasses, weird hair, long hair, or whatever it is. I think that we’re seeing this. It’s not just a generational thing and it’s always been that. Remember the song Long Hair Freaky People, whatever that was called? “Need not apply? Well, hey. Look at today. We are we are hiring all the freaky people.”

Do you know what I did once with my kids? I took a high school picture and showed it to my kids. We went on Facebook to see what everybody was doing. It’s so much fun. I discovered that the cool kids back then were not the cool kids at all. They’re living a very Karen and Bob life. The weird ones who were in high school are the ones traveling the world.

They’re the ones who are producing things. They’re the ones who are creating awesome things, living abroad, and doing amazing stuff. It’s interesting because back in the days when I was in high school, “That’s the cool group. They were all good-looking and successful, and their parents were rich. They were the cool ones.” No. They were not. The weird ones are the cool ones. I love doing that with my kids because they’ll say, “It’s good to be cool.” “It’s good to be weird.” I have some weird kids myself. They were very happy with that exercise.

I think it’s good to be with you. You have to be yourself.

Exactly. It is good to be authentic to you.

It reminds me of the movie Back To The Future. It’s the stereotypical Bucky or whatever his name was, and then the nerdy kid ended up being the wealthy one and had a kid who was able to partner to go back to the future. Brilliant. I think the stereotype, particularly in the genre back then, has changed dramatically. I’d love to do some research on that or learn more about that. We have to join your movement.

Yes, please, and we’re also setting up the Think Tanks for kids now. I’m very excited about that. Not just teenagers because that’s easy, but also the three to twelve-year-olds. We’re partnering together with an organization in San Francisco where we’ve created something very cool for these kids to be a member of the global Think Tank to solve issues in hunger, homelessness, climate change, well-being, and education. It’s wonderful to include these areas with 5 to 6-year-olds. Thank you, NASA, for doing that research. We said, “We want to see creative, brilliant minds and solve some big problems in the world.”

Getting Involved With The Octopus Movement

That’s right. Tap into that uncorrupted youth with those great ideas without fear of saying anything, by the way. That’s why it’s wonderful to engage with that age group. Perry, I know that we’re at our time but it’s been wonderful talking to you. A lot of our readers are curious about the Octopus Movement. How can I get involved? Who do I contact? Can you give us a little bit of guidance there?

Of course. There is the website, TheOctopusMovement.org. Go and have a look. We’re getting a new website, but this website will do. The beauty of joining the Octopus Movement, it’s for free, and it asks you what you want to do. Do you just want to lurk around and see what’s happening? Do you want to swim with the other octopi? Do you want to be in a Think Tank or a book club? Do you want to be a founding member? That’s when you donate €300 to the Octopus Movement, you become a founding member.

Do you want to be an angel donor? Do you want to be a specialist? Do you want to go into education with us? Where do you want to be? What suits you? What feels comfortable? In September 2024, we will start the new series of Meet The Other Octopi. It’s an online event every other week on Wednesday where people can meet the other octopi and you don’t have to be a member of the Octopus Movement.

Just go in that Zoom meeting for an hour. We have special guests who prepare four to five questions. We have breakout rooms. People are meeting each other. That’s the human mycelium. That’s the network. This is what it’s about. It’s about these connections. It’s about being together, not in a linear way, but in a non-linear way. That means no rules, no questions. Just connect and feel your gut feeling in how it works and do the best thing.

What a fun conversation. I’m looking forward to getting involved. Thank you very much, Perry.

Thank you very much, Sam. Thank you, Char. Thank you, Howard. Nice meeting you.

You’re welcome. Thank you very much. I see that you’ve already sent me an invite on LinkedIn and I encourage everybody to look you up.

Yay. Please do and also on PickMyBrain.world. This is a platform where you can pick someone’s brain. Anyone who wants to hang out with me for 20 minutes on Zoom can just go to Pick My Brain, Book Me. It’s also for free. It’s about the human connection. It’s about meeting each other and having a conversation. I’m always available. I love talking to people all over the world, exploring what we can do, and connecting the dots. That’s what excites me the most, to be honest.

Great. Thank you to all of our readers out there for reading this great conversation with Doctor Octopus. Perry. Thank you so much once again, and we’ll see everyone next time. Take care.

 

Important Links

• Perry Knoppert
• LinkedIn – Perry Knopert
• PickMyBrain.world
• The Book of Symbols
• Chaos Management and Economics, The Implications of Non-linear Thinking
• Leading Without Fear

 

About Perry Knoppert

Perry (Dr. Octopus) Knoppert is a visionary leader, innovator, and philanthropist with over six years of experience as a founder and board member. Through his pioneering initiatives, he is at the forefront of promoting nonlinear thinking and cognitive diversity. Perry founded The Octopus Movement and Brain Forest Alliance, two groundbreaking organizations dedicated to raising awareness and acceptance of the extraordinary abilities of atypical thinkers. His work empowers these individuals to tackle the most complex challenges of today and tomorrow.

In addition to his founding roles, Perry serves as a board member at Pick My Neurodiverse Brain, an innovative project that champions inclusivity and understanding of neurodiversity. His passion lies in creating positive change through authentic and expansive conversations, using his life experiences as a source of wisdom and guidance.

As a philosopher, multipotentialite, and self-proclaimed octovist, Perry inspires and connects with others through his unique approach to leadership and problem-solving. His commitment to empowering atypical thinkers and fostering cognitive diversity makes him a driving force in shaping a more inclusive and innovative world.