Work is often the number one cause of overwhelm, busyness, and misery in our everyday lives. The unfortunate culture of over work must be put to an end, and Brigid Schulte is here to discuss what it takes to finally get rid of the unhealthy daily grind. In this episode, the director of Better Life Lab explains how business leaders must focus more on creating supportive work environments for their employees, where outcomes and impact are valued more than work hours and presence alone. Brigid also stresses the importance of integrating transparency, honesty, and growth into the work culture, giving everyone equal access to professional development centered on sustainability and equity.

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Brigid Schulte- Over Work: Transforming The Daily Grind In The Quest For A Better Life

Introducing Brigid Schulte

Welcome to the show where we’re diving deep into the culture of overwork and its impact on our daily lives as employees in organizations. This is super important for your leaders out there to make sure that we’re balancing things. We’re going to talk about that and dive deep into that in this episode. But joining us is Brigid Schulte. She’s a renowned author and journalist and the Director of the Better Life Lab.

Brigid brings her wealth of experience from her time at the Washington Post where her contributions were part of a Pulitzer Prize winning team. It includes those important insights that she’s going to be talking about here, how she helps leaders with the complexities of modern life, and how to have that balance internally. Through her work, Brigid challenges the status quo, advocating for transformative change that aims to improve and balance work, love, and play. Join us as we explore the actionable strategies for reshaping work environments to foster a healthier and more fulfilling work life overall.

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Welcome, Brigid. How are you doing?

I’m doing great. Thank you so much. How are you doing?

I’m doing great. As we jump into things here, I want to make sure that we look a little bit at how you came about helping the people that you help. Would you mind taking us through your journey of how you got into becoming a journalist and focusing on this particular niche?

Sure. I don’t know how far back you want me to go, but I grew up in Oregon. I love Oregon. It’s beautiful out there but it also rains a lot, so I grew up reading a lot as a kid. I was taken by stories, fiction and nonfiction, and learning about other people’s lives. Early on, I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to somehow be part of learning and sharing what you learn. I was reading George Plimpton. He went and played football. I was like, “I want to do that.” He then went with the hot air balloon and I thought, “What a great profession. You can try on a lot of different things and then share what you’ve learned.” Early on, I was very taken by stories and storytelling.

I fell into journalism a little bit by accident. I always thought I would make up stories or fiction. It is so true. Real life is stranger than fiction. People’s stories are amazing with what they’ve been through in their lives. I found myself really drawn to real events, real stories, and what people were going through. There’s this one phrase that I came across that I love but it’s anonymous. I’m not sure who said it. It says, “The shortest distance between two people is a story.” I love how stories connect us. There are ways that we find what is common in all of us in our yearning and what we want out of life. It’s a reminder of how short our lives are. We can often lose that and forget about that. For me, stories keep me very grounded in the, “Why are we here? What are our lives like?”

I started my career in journalism and worked for a number of different newspapers. I’ve written magazine stories. I wound up at the Washington Post. I like to say I started when my son was about 8 months old and left when he was 6’4”. I was there for some time. I learned a lot. I wrote for a lot of different sections.

I wrote my first book based on my experience there where I was trying to combine a very meaningful but also demanding career with trying to be a mother, caring about having that time for family, and struggling and feeling like I wasn’t doing it very well. Everybody I talked to was like, “Nobody’s doing it well,” so it was limping along. I wanted to look into that. Why do we accept that? Why is that okay? Why is it mainly falling on women? How did we get here, and can we change?

That led to my first book, Overwhelmed: Work, Love, and Play When No One Has the Time. It looks at gender roles, modern life, and time pressure. I found all sorts of fascinating research about time use research, which I didn’t even know existed. I learned a lot and there was so much I wanted to share. Once I finished that book, I became convinced that so much of what drives overwhelm, busyness, and a lot of misery in modern life is centered in our work culture.

There is an overwork ethic that has developed. We’ve gone from hard work to super overdoing it hard work, and it shows up in different ways. For knowledge workers, there’s an expectation to overwork in one job. For the ideal worker, the more hours you put in, the more rewards you get. That’s held up by evidence that that’s what we reward even though it may not be the best performance. That’s the thinking. For gig workers, low-wage workers, or hourly workers, the jobs are what I call the crapification of work. Many jobs no longer support human life. People are really struggling to combine several different jobs, side hustles, and gigs.

People are overworking for different reasons on different sides of the socioeconomic spectrum but the costs and the consequences on our lives are enormous as well as on our civic life, the fabric of our society. People talk about deaths of despair and they think about opioids. I often think about our work culture because people don’t have time, time to care for themselves or be with family. Work is eating us alive in a way.

I really wanted to look at why and how we got here, but more importantly, the same thing I did with the first book and part of my philosophy at the Better Life Lab where I’m the Director of the Work-Family Justice and Gender Equity Program, is to look for solutions. Who’s doing it better? What can we learn? I wanted to understand deeply where we are and how we got here, but where can we go?

I try to look at the change at the personal transformation level because let’s face it. I’m looking for that myself from personal transformation to looking at organizational change and leadership change, and then looking at the larger public policy cultural norms. I am looking at change on those three levels. Both of the books do that. In Over Work, which came out not long ago, the first couple of chapters are tough, but stick with it because the rest of them are really about change agents.

I wanted people to understand that it’s systems that you have to look at. Particularly in the United States, we tend to think, “If you’re overworked or burned out, it’s your fault. You need to set better boundaries,” or, “You should take a bubble bath at night.” There is an element to that. There’s always a personal element. I don’t want to dismiss that, but that is not the only thing we need to be looking at. A lot of it is the systems that we have at work and our workload. Do we have enough people to do the work that we’ve outlined? There are an awful lot of things that we can change.

The last thing I’d say on the question of, “Who are you? Why are you doing this?” is that I’m passionate about figuring out how everyone can have access to living a good, full, and wholehearted life. Not just a lucky few or handful of billionaires, but all of us. How can we create the systems that do that, the public policy that does that, and the cultural norms that do that, our own personal mindsets and expectations? How can that all work together so that we can live meaningful, fair, equitable, and wonderful lives?

Impact Of Brigid’s Work On Over Work

There are many things that we need to talk about during this discussion based on that. You’re hitting on a lot of points that I know our audience is very interested in learning more about. I know you wrote Overwhelmed a number of years ago and continued the advice with Over Work. Since you’ve written these books, how have they transformed the way that leaders have thought about the workplace and thinking about the health of their workforce? What have you witnessed there?

When you think about the impact that my books are having, from Overwhelmed, it’s been part of a larger movement that the pandemic brought to the fore, which is an understanding of people and their care responsibilities. There was a Harvard Business School study not long ago that showed about 75% of all employees identify as having some form of care responsibility. Before that, it was invisible. You were supposed to work as if you didn’t have care responsibilities.

There were the ideal worker norms, particularly when you get further up in leadership and the C-Suite level. There have been surveys that said, “Who’s the best worker? Who’s the ideal worker?” Many people would say at that leadership level, “Someone with no care responsibilities so that you can devote everything to work.” We’d bifurcated work and life and work and care.

I do feel like my book showed that you can’t do that. All of us have care responsibilities even if it’s caring for ourselves. We do get sick. We’re not machines. How critical that is. It is not an accommodation for a lesser worker. When you think about the fullness or the wholeness of a human being, we often say, “Bring your whole self to work.” A lot of leaders don’t mean it. When you really do and you recognize that when people have rich and complex lives when there are care responsibilities and they’re rich and complex people, you bring that to your work. It makes your work more fuller. You’re more innovative.

Believe me. If you want to get something done, you talk to a busy mother. There’s research that shows that it’s incredibly productive, but they’re not going to be able to put in the longer hours. Oftentimes, women or people with care responsibilities will get punished for that and think, “You’re not here until 11:00 so you can’t be a good worker,” rather than looking around at the other end, like, “What are you producing? What impact are you having?”

That’s an important thing that my next book is doing. The first one is bringing care to the fore. This next book shows you how you can do it and how it’s better for everyone, for human beings, workers, employees, leaders, and your own well-being and your own life. It also makes the work better because what it does is it forces you as a leader to be clearer about what the work actually is. It is shocking, in the reporting that I’ve done, how many organizations don’t know that and how many people aren’t sure what their work is. We’re measuring with an old factory standard of long hours as the way we measure productivity. It’s harder to do but we need to think in a much different way about what productivity means in a modern environment.

Advice On Maintaining Work-Life Balance

Before you get too far away from the original topic of caregiving, I want to revisit that because that’s a big topic a lot of leaders are facing because of the return to work initiative. During COVID, we had a lot of remote work. Not a lot of leaders wanted people to return to the office. What has happened is during those times of remote work, people have developed a lifestyle where they’re spending more time with family, supporting their children, and so forth. Going back to the office putting a strain on that, what do you typically advise leaders in that particular scenario of that return to work and how to maintain work-life balance?

Two things very quickly. It’s not return to work because people are already working. They’re working in different places. It’s the return to office. That’s something to be really clear about. There’s an awful lot of work that has been done and done very well in a whole bunch of different places, just not at the office. I worked that way for a long time before it was considered okay. I hid, which is nuts. The story that I was part of that won the Pulitzer, I wrote at my kitchen table. You can be incredibly productive and you don’t have to be sitting at a desk in an office. That’s one thing to think about.

The other thing is we use the word remote or remote workers. That implies that the real work is done in a place and that if you’re somewhere else, you are like a satellite. You are spinning off in your own orbit. I like to think about using words like digital or network because then there’s no one central place where work has to be done. All of that work is valued.

There is no one central place where work has to be done. Be it at home or at the office, all work is valued. Share on X

That said around language, thinking about digital work or network work and returning to an office, what the research shows is that across a variety of industries and a variety of different kinds of companies and businesses, when you look at who’s most effective and where people are feeling the greatest job satisfaction, they tend to be a hybrid. You have some time when you come together. That is important.

As human beings, we are incredibly social. There is a real value in having in-person time together to build culture and build those bonds. It’s not the only way to build bonds. There are fully digital companies that have figured this out. I don’t want to say that you have to ditch that if that’s working for you. Every company needs to figure out what works best for them, for what they do, who they have, and what those care responsibilities are.

To fully return to office, what you find is a lot of companies are using that as a soft layoff. A lot of people are like, “If you do that, it’s going to make people so angry they’re going to walk.” We’ve seen that. The danger with that as a leader is that you don’t know who’s going to do that. Typically, it’s going to be your higher performer who has the ability. You have to ask yourself, “Do you want to lose control like that? Do you want to see who’s left? Do you really want to build the team that you need to get your job done?”

How do you do that then? How do you go for a hybrid setting that would work? I’ve looked at work redesigns from before the pandemic. I’ve got a chapter of that in the book. I’ve looked at the COVID experiments. What did we learn during all of that experimentation? I also looked at the short work hours movement. Who on earth is figuring out how to do the same amount of work and less time?

Everybody comes up with different solutions, but the process in all of those instances, COVID experiments, and work redesigns in short work hours, is the same. Anybody can do it, whether it’s an individual, a team leader, a manager, or an organizational leader. The first step is to take a big deep breath, stop, and then begin to ask, “What is our work? What is most important?” Get really clear on that.

What I’ve seen happen in the most successful cases is you turn it down to individual teams closest to the work. You turn it over to them and say, “Figure it out. How are we going to work a four-day workweek? How are we going to handle everybody’s care responsibilities and the work that we have to do at different times? When do we need to be together? When are we better? What should we be doing when we’re apart?”

Giving the power at that lower local level, coming up with something, experimenting with it, gathering data, having conversations, being transparent on what’s working and what’s not, tweaking it, and then having transparency. It’s trust and transparency throughout the organization. Those are the places that have made huge differences and real changes in how they work with higher job satisfaction.

In the conversation we had before this, one of the key elements that I have found in all of these processes, and what is almost more important than the evidence is whether the leaders believe it will work and will invest in the process. Not only that but then they will also try to model that themselves. Leaders and leadership mindset was one of the most surprising things in the reporting I did for this book and I worked on it for ten years. I’ve been doing an awful lot of reporting. It’s a definable process you can go through. The power of the leadership mindset was astounding to me. If there are a lot of leaders out there, you have a lot of power, maybe more than you recognize to set policy, to set culture, and to make change.

 

Let’s dive into that a little bit more. I know the concept of mindset. The first thing that you were saying was what we need to do in the workplace is to first understand the job that needs to be done or the outcome that needs to happen and make sure that we’re tracking metrics so that we know when work is being performed regardless of where it is and it’s deriving to results. The important thing that leaders need to change their mindset on is measuring not whether they’re seeing a person sitting in an office chair but measuring results. That’s the concept.

The next piece is also a mindset shift on the employee side as well. We find that employees say, “Now I’ve been given more flexibility to be able to do work where I think I do it best.” Maybe that’s at home, maybe it’s at a coworking place, or maybe it’s in the office. They feel like, “I’m given this freedom. I need to demonstrate that I’m moving the needle in these metrics.” They end up working much harder at home or much harder in different environments. How can we find this right balance in mindset, not only on the leadership side but on employees as well?

The answer is two parts. I  can remember being at the Washington Post and having the emails come out, “So-and-so is amazing. They’ve worked every single weekend the past month.” What is the message that the boss is sending out? Is it that you’re not a good worker unless you’re willing to gift your time back to your employer, the time that you need to recover or spend time with your family?

In those environments where there is that ideal worker expectation and somebody works digitally or has a flexible schedule, what the research shows is that people will work harder. That was my case. I was working at the Washington Post. I worked very flexibly. I worked digitally even when people didn’t know. I worked my rear off because I didn’t want to be found out, I wanted to keep my flexibility, and I was grateful. The researchers call that the gift theory. You feel that it’s a gift, so then you have to give back.

This is why it’s really important for you to recognize that on your own but then also start challenging those ideal worker cultural norms in your organization. Part of the reason why you’re going to overwork with that flexibility is because that’s not seen as the default. It’s not seen as the norm. The more that we can move toward work cultures and work practices that recognize flexibility with accountability as a default, then the more we’re going to be able to cut down on wicked overwork in a flexible environment.

 

Working Around The Negative Impact Of Layoffs

Thank you for that. The next mind shift that a lot of leaders have faced over the past few years is that the workforce has changed from the traditional workforce. We have full-time workers, part-time workers, contingent workers, and gig workers, and these in the desire to have an agile workforce. It has caused some organizations different treatment of these different worker groups. For instance, we seem to value the work or value our employees who are providing the work directly before our contingent and gig workers.

When we think about a sense of fairness and a way that we can really help our gig workers out, because a lot of times, these are those caregivers that cannot be in an office space and they need that additional flexibility or freedom to do work when they need to do work in the rest environment, how should leaders be framing their mindset around this?

It’s such an important question. You can see what has happened over the last several decades. There are fewer W-2 employees. You say it’s all in the service of being lean efficiency, lean and mean, and an agile workforce. A lot of it has wreaked havoc on the lives of people. We’ve got so much more precarity in all of our employment that it’s causing enormous problems with stress and health issues.

There’s research that shows that layoffs are really bad for human beings because it’s hard. Particularly in the United States, we’ve got a very outdated unemployment insurance system that doesn’t last long enough, doesn’t give you enough money, and doesn’t train you or help you get to the next best thing like systems in Germany or other countries do. It’s tough. I write about it in the book. They’re laid off and then they spiral down. Their health goes. There are higher suicide rates potentially.

Work and having a job is key to survival in the United States. We don’t have public policy support that would help you, sadly. We are real outliers there. That’s something that we need to be thinking about as a society, whether that’s what we want, particularly as we move into a future where there may be less work. What’s going to happen to the humans then?

It’s important to know that while layoffs are bad for people, the research shows they are bad for companies too. We think that they’re going to get us to the right size or be agile, but what ends up happening is that morale tanks. People start wondering, “Am I next?” Productivity goes down. What the research shows is that a year after layoffs, you end up needing to hire people because you’ve lost too many people. Layoffs have become a status quo, “This is what we’re going to do.”

I would encourage leaders to think long and hard about what is not only the work but the right sizing. Sometimes, we think about right sizing as squeezing the labor budget too much. Where else are you putting the money? You look at these outsized CEO salaries. There was a time when CEOs were about 30 times what the average worker did. This time, it’s up to 300 to 1,000 times more. You really have to be thinking about what your values are and where human beings fit in that.

Most researchers will tell you, “You are only as good as your people. Your people are your secret weapon.” That’s true of any profession. That’s like retail. When you look at hourly workers, that’s a place where people have cut their labor budgets to the bone, often from corporations on high directives. You walk into a store and you can’t find anything, the sweaters aren’t folded, and the lines are too long, so then people leave. You can see on their budget that labor costs control those or they’re down.

You are only as good as the people in your team. Share on X

What you can’t see are what researchers call future lost sales. When somebody walks out, they’re so frustrated. They walk out and they don’t spend anything, and then maybe they’ll take to social media, badmouth you, and say, “Nobody should ever go there.” That same thing can happen to any organization. When you rely too much on precarious jobs, people can’t live like that. You need to be thinking about humans and their human well-being. It’s going to make their lives better, but it’s also going to make your organization more successful and more sustainable.

Let’s revisit the topic of layoffs. When I think of a layoff, I think, “There’s been a misstep of leadership of managing the business effectively, managing their people, and making sure that they have an agile workforce to stretch with the economy over time.” At times it will happen. There are leaders that are facing a layoff and they have to do more with less. Their people are impacted. Their people are fearful of future layoffs. Their people are being burdened with even more work than they’ve had before. Some say, “I couldn’t do the work job before. How can I do it with even more now?” How should leaders pivot to turn that situation into a success and alleviate some of the stress from their workforce in that scenario?

I would encourage them to interrogate whether they really need that layoff and that they are doing it for the right reasons. If you are, then be transparent about it. The research is so clear. With the return to office stuff or layoffs, if you give people a story and everybody knows it’s not true, it creates moral injury. It creates mistrust and distrust. A lot of times, the return to office is not necessarily to do work better or build culture, which is what leaders will say, but it’s because you’ve got a whole lot that you’re paying in real estate. People know that, so be real. That would be the main thing. Be real and be honest with people.

If you give people a false story, it creates moral injury and distrust within the team. Share on X

If you do have to do some layoff or right sizing with the people who are left, this is where I would encourage people to go through the same process that they do with the four-day work week, the COVID experiments, or with the work redesigns. Get clear on the work and then back it up from there. What are the processes that you need to get to the outcome, the performance, and the impact?

One of the things that I’ve found over and over again in my reporting is how powerful the status quo is. You’ll ask, “Why do you do it this way? Why do you have this meeting every week that everybody hates on Monday mornings at 9:00, which makes it difficult for anybody with care responsibilities to get there? One person spouts off. Everybody’s on their phones. Everybody hates it. Why do you do this?” There’s an awful lot of that, “We’ve always done it this way.”

I spent some time in Iceland where they’ve made the shorter work hours available to 85% of the workforce. That was one of the main things that they ran up against people with this mindset, “We’ve always done it this way. We can’t change.” That’s the first thing that you have to do, is question. Let that crap go. Maybe there is a different way to do it. If you are really going to cut that many people, then you owe it to the people who are left to figure out how to do it differently and better.

Embracing A Powerful Growth Mindset

Those are great points. The other thing is that the global economy or the global demographics are changing. We’re finding some economies in some countries where their workforce is shrinking rapidly, some of those that we’ve relied upon for goods and services such as China and so forth. There’s a whole movement of companies nearshoring, looking at their supply train chain, and bringing jobs closer to home.

They’re being forced to look at ways to increase productivity, and in comes this new technology such as artificial intelligence. That brings relief to some of the problems and also a big stressor to some others who think, “If I don’t up my game and learn this new technology, I may not be relevant in the future,” or, “How is my job going to change? Am I going to have a job?” When we’re thinking about the stresses, learning new skills, and so forth, how can we change the mindset of our employees so that they are embracing this growth mindset to learn more to up their game on a daily basis?

The first thing that I would like to do though is really think about why some of these countries’ workforces are shrinking. You mentioned China. Japan’s the same way. They’re shrinking because their birth rate is falling. Why is their birth rate falling? A lot of it is that they have punishing work cultures. People feel like they have to give everything to work, so they don’t have time for themselves to meet someone or have a family.

There’s an awful lot of gender inequality in some of these countries. I have another chapter where it’s set in Japan. That’s happening there as well where you’ve got these work cultures that are almost impossible to live in. People are not finding each other. They’re not marrying. They’re not having children. They’re not procreating.

There are larger societal issues that we need to be thinking about that come along with work and care and that come along with really thinking about how we structure our work and how we make room for care and life in our work. That’s a cautionary tale that we need to be thinking about here as we define what good work is and what hard work is. We need to be making sure that recognizing the fullness of human beings and care is part of that good work. That’s the first thing that I want to say.

Every business must recognize the fullness of human beings and make sure that care is part of good work. Share on X

When you think about AI, there’s so much fear because there’s so much that’s unknown. It’s still so new. We don’t know how it’s going to change things. ChatGPT, is that going to replace people’s jobs? We don’t know. There’s a lot of uncertainty, and with uncertainty comes fear. Sometimes, we react too quickly.

When you look at the history of how technology has changed things over time, it’s true that it has always destroyed jobs. We don’t have buggy whips anymore. It has destroyed some jobs but it has always created new jobs. It has always taken us to a different level. There’ve been economists like David Autor, Claudia Golden, and a number of people who’ve written about this before.

When so much of the workforce was on the family farm, people could see that with tractors, technology, and all of this new stuff, they weren’t going to need as much manual labor on the farm anymore. They wouldn’t have something for their kids. They wouldn’t have a path for them. In the Midwest, they got together and thought, “What’s the next best thing? What can we do?”

They got together and thought, “We need to get them educated. They need to go to high school.” That became the high school movement. They began to invest in public education and made sure that they had a highly educated workforce. That then became, in the 1940s, the workforce that ended up helping the United States win the Second World War. We had the most educated workforce in the world at that point.

We need to be thinking bigger about these challenges and not just like, “How am I going to train up?” or, “How am I going to use AI? What’s it going to mean for my company?” We need to think about that, but we also need to think about, “What are some of the larger social trends that we need to be thinking about? What can I, as a business, do to help move our entire country into a better place? If we’re going to have so many fewer jobs, what are we going to do with the people? We have a pretty crappy safety net right now. What do we do? What’s the human future?

What is my role as a business leader thinking about some of my role in advocating? If I’m not able to get somebody their health insurance, do we want a whole bunch of people who have no health insurance and no access to any kind of healthcare? What’s that going to mean? Are we going to have a society of haves and have-nots? What’s my role as a business leader in trying to advocate for not only the best case for my organization but how I fit into this larger whole?” I would really encourage people to think about that.

Thank you. As we summarize our discussion, there are a couple of things. What are the first actions leaders should take to de-stress their organization so they can retain their top performers, create an environment that attracts the best talent, and then also motivate their people overall to feel good and do their best work? What are the top things that leaders should be thinking about?

The Three Principles Of Good Work

I go back to history on this one. One of the books that I read that was very influential as I was writing my book is a book called The Story of Work. It’s the history of work from the dawn of the prehistoric agents for human beings. It’s a book by a Dutch historian named Jan Lucassen. One of the things that he said is that throughout human history, good work has always been defined by three principles, meaning, fairness, and cooperation. If you can keep those three things in mind, are you creating meaning? Is there fairness? Are you making decisions that people trust? Are you cooperating? Remember that we all need to work together.

When you have these top-down command and control cultures, they’re incredibly punishing. Only certain people are going to rise. If that’s the organization that you want to create and foster, then you recognize that you could be on a tightrope. People might abandon you unless you pay them top dollar. If you want people invested in you, your purpose, and why you’re there, you need to be thinking about meaning, fairness, cooperation, and what you’re doing.

Brigid’s Work At The Better Life Lab

Thank you for that. Before we wrap up here, I would love to learn a little bit more about the important work you’re doing at the Better Life Lab. Could you dive into that?

Sure. At the Better Life Lab, we’re one of a number of programs at a think tank called New America. What we’re all looking at is how we can renew the promise of America of the best that we can be. What we focus on at the Better Life Lab is that question. How do we make a good life more available, more equitable, and more fair?

We do what we call work family justice. How can we have the systems, workplace practices, public policies, and cultural norms that help people combine meaningful work and time for their lives and care? How can we elevate the value of paid and unpaid care work? Paid care workers, childcare workers, and home care workers performed such a vital role. We found that especially in the pandemic. People could not work without childcare. Yet, these workers are paid poverty wages. How can we increase that value? There’s the unpaid care work that mainly women do. They spend two times the amount that men do. How can we bring more equity? How can we bring more sharing into elevating the value of care?

We look at gender equity across race, class, and gender. How we work is we do a lot of journalism, research, thought leadership, and narrative change work. We’ve done work with behavioral scientists. We do have some workshops that we give about how to create workplaces that can be both productive and cultures of equity and trust. That’s a lot of the work that we do. I encourage you to go to our website. We have a newsletter. Subscribe to it. Be in touch with us. We’re constantly looking at how we can look at moving public policy, workplace practice, and cultural norms.

I want to thank you for such a wonderful conversation. I’ve learned so much from you. I really appreciate you sharing your time with us.

Thank you so much. It’s been a wonderful conversation. I’m really grateful. I look forward to continuing to work on all of these things.

Thank you to all who have joined in on the show. We’ll see you in the next episode.

 

Important Links

• Better Life Lab
• Overwhelmed: Work, Love, and Play When No One Has the Time
• Over Work: Transforming the Daily Grind in the Quest for a Better Life
• The Story of Work: A New History of Humankind